Must restrain fist of death
Jul. 7th, 2006 22:32![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
torquillI've been skipping most of the recent thread on the sfbay-poly list, because I knew as soon as I read the initial post that the same old flamewar was going to start up again. And it has, with predictable results.
The story, short form: someone regularly advertises for their massage/touch party on the list. That someone has stated that no strictly heterosexual men or fat women are welcome. Unless they bring a skinny woman with them, and then it's fine.
Start up the furor about whether discrimination, of any kind, is okay. It's a long-running discussion in many camps, and no one has ever come up with an absolute answer. I'm not particularly interested in participating in the discussion -- I know my thoughts on the matter, and I'm comfortable with them. It's hard to ignore twenty-plus posts in two days, though, so I dipped into one of the later ones.
In charges someone who states that 1) being overweight is not proven to be unhealthy and 2) the only reason many people aren't attracted to overweight folk is unhealthy societal attitudes and prejudices. If only they'd shed their "indoctrinated bigotry" they'd see the light, and start pursuing large people as they should feel free to! After all, there's nothing "natural" about favoring very thin women!
Where do I start?
Oh, good heaven, where do I start? This is just about jumping up and down on one of my buttons, and I know that if I come in and say anything, I'll be contributing to the flamewar. There's no point in arguing with people who are convinced that they're right, and it's them against the iron fist of society. If you disagree in the smallest detail, you're one of Them. And meanwhile, the rancor just gets worse, and more inboxes fill up with more pointless arguments.
And so... I turn to LJ. Because I can't keep my mouth shut, but I can at least refrain from adding to the problem.
I'm not fat. I'm sensitive about my weight, because I worry (illogically) that anyone who hears about my numerical weight will immediately assume I'm massively obese. It shouldn't matter to me, because I'm not, but it does. It's a psychological weakness that I'm aware of, and still searching to find a handle on. But that's my issue, and very few people share it.
A lot of people who are overweight are defensive too, and with the amount of pressure exerted on them by insensitive clods, I can't really blame them. I feel the same looming pressure as I try to distance myself from the "fat" camp. If it weren't for the stigmas, I wouldn't have a problem... but the fact remains, that even without the idiots hammering on the self-esteem of people carrying even 20 extra pounds, some fat people would still have a problem. Even with beautiful self-esteem and full acceptance of society, the obese would not be totally in harmony with the world.
I know why the guy says that being overweight isn't proven to be unhealthy. It was that one, controversial study that didn't see any correlation between being moderately overweight and having health problems. Now, it was one study, with a few problems -- I do agree with the conclusion, that carrying up to 30 "extra" pounds isn't a significant risk, and is doubtless healthier than stressing a body hard trying to stay perfectly trim all the time. What I disagree with is extending that conclusion to every case of excess weight out there. There is a difference -- a medical one -- between overweight and obese. I know obese people, who are carrying 100, even 200 pounds more than their frame was meant to carry. That is not healthy, and anyone who argues that it is is an idiot. The obese people themselves are free to decide whether they are comfortable with their weight or want to take it off, but from a strictly medical standpoint, real obesity is not desirable.
As for this lack of attraction to overweight people, which is strictly because of indoctrinated bigotry: Bullshit.
Come on, everyone has types. I definitely have mine. And, as it happens, my type does not coincide with extra weight. I like seeing particular features of the body, like hipbones and the division between the thigh muscles and distinct tendons on the back of the hand, which don't appear in overweight men. I like being able to totally encircle a man's ribcage with my arms and then some, because it feels right to me. I like seeing the long curves of tall, slender women, and a distinct jawline. None of this is societal -- I wasn't taught by my teachers or parents or advertising copy that the "snuffbox" on a man's hand is sexy. I'm not attracted to black men, either -- does that make me racist?
The point was made, either in the current flamewar or on the edges of it, that none of the "causes" of our likes or dislikes really matters. What matters is that you treat people, even those you are not attracted to, with respect for them as a feeling person. Is it disrespectful to disinvite people you're not attracted to because you don't want them at your own sex party? That's the argument that's been going on for a while. What isn't up for debate is that if said people are at any event you attend, it is disrespectful to treat them badly in any way. You don't have to play with them, or touch them, or even have long conversations with them, but they are people just like you, and deserve to be treated as such.
If a fat woman shows up at this party, the others should welcome her as a guest, even if it's only to treat her like they would someone's grandmother. She, on the other hand, should be prepared to run into insensitive pricks, because they are a fact of life. And, after all, it's better to be pleasantly surprised at how nice everyone is, than to run home crying because someone was unexpectedly mean.
Sigh.
Drama. It's not just on LJ.
The story, short form: someone regularly advertises for their massage/touch party on the list. That someone has stated that no strictly heterosexual men or fat women are welcome. Unless they bring a skinny woman with them, and then it's fine.
Start up the furor about whether discrimination, of any kind, is okay. It's a long-running discussion in many camps, and no one has ever come up with an absolute answer. I'm not particularly interested in participating in the discussion -- I know my thoughts on the matter, and I'm comfortable with them. It's hard to ignore twenty-plus posts in two days, though, so I dipped into one of the later ones.
In charges someone who states that 1) being overweight is not proven to be unhealthy and 2) the only reason many people aren't attracted to overweight folk is unhealthy societal attitudes and prejudices. If only they'd shed their "indoctrinated bigotry" they'd see the light, and start pursuing large people as they should feel free to! After all, there's nothing "natural" about favoring very thin women!
Where do I start?
Oh, good heaven, where do I start? This is just about jumping up and down on one of my buttons, and I know that if I come in and say anything, I'll be contributing to the flamewar. There's no point in arguing with people who are convinced that they're right, and it's them against the iron fist of society. If you disagree in the smallest detail, you're one of Them. And meanwhile, the rancor just gets worse, and more inboxes fill up with more pointless arguments.
And so... I turn to LJ. Because I can't keep my mouth shut, but I can at least refrain from adding to the problem.
I'm not fat. I'm sensitive about my weight, because I worry (illogically) that anyone who hears about my numerical weight will immediately assume I'm massively obese. It shouldn't matter to me, because I'm not, but it does. It's a psychological weakness that I'm aware of, and still searching to find a handle on. But that's my issue, and very few people share it.
A lot of people who are overweight are defensive too, and with the amount of pressure exerted on them by insensitive clods, I can't really blame them. I feel the same looming pressure as I try to distance myself from the "fat" camp. If it weren't for the stigmas, I wouldn't have a problem... but the fact remains, that even without the idiots hammering on the self-esteem of people carrying even 20 extra pounds, some fat people would still have a problem. Even with beautiful self-esteem and full acceptance of society, the obese would not be totally in harmony with the world.
I know why the guy says that being overweight isn't proven to be unhealthy. It was that one, controversial study that didn't see any correlation between being moderately overweight and having health problems. Now, it was one study, with a few problems -- I do agree with the conclusion, that carrying up to 30 "extra" pounds isn't a significant risk, and is doubtless healthier than stressing a body hard trying to stay perfectly trim all the time. What I disagree with is extending that conclusion to every case of excess weight out there. There is a difference -- a medical one -- between overweight and obese. I know obese people, who are carrying 100, even 200 pounds more than their frame was meant to carry. That is not healthy, and anyone who argues that it is is an idiot. The obese people themselves are free to decide whether they are comfortable with their weight or want to take it off, but from a strictly medical standpoint, real obesity is not desirable.
As for this lack of attraction to overweight people, which is strictly because of indoctrinated bigotry: Bullshit.
Come on, everyone has types. I definitely have mine. And, as it happens, my type does not coincide with extra weight. I like seeing particular features of the body, like hipbones and the division between the thigh muscles and distinct tendons on the back of the hand, which don't appear in overweight men. I like being able to totally encircle a man's ribcage with my arms and then some, because it feels right to me. I like seeing the long curves of tall, slender women, and a distinct jawline. None of this is societal -- I wasn't taught by my teachers or parents or advertising copy that the "snuffbox" on a man's hand is sexy. I'm not attracted to black men, either -- does that make me racist?
The point was made, either in the current flamewar or on the edges of it, that none of the "causes" of our likes or dislikes really matters. What matters is that you treat people, even those you are not attracted to, with respect for them as a feeling person. Is it disrespectful to disinvite people you're not attracted to because you don't want them at your own sex party? That's the argument that's been going on for a while. What isn't up for debate is that if said people are at any event you attend, it is disrespectful to treat them badly in any way. You don't have to play with them, or touch them, or even have long conversations with them, but they are people just like you, and deserve to be treated as such.
If a fat woman shows up at this party, the others should welcome her as a guest, even if it's only to treat her like they would someone's grandmother. She, on the other hand, should be prepared to run into insensitive pricks, because they are a fact of life. And, after all, it's better to be pleasantly surprised at how nice everyone is, than to run home crying because someone was unexpectedly mean.
Sigh.
Drama. It's not just on LJ.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
There's no nice way to say it...
Date: 2006-07-08 06:57 (UTC)Really.
I'm better now.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-08 07:19 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-08 07:52 (UTC)Bi men are apparently okay. Since bi people get a lot of discrimination from both sides, it's an interesting difference.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-08 08:00 (UTC)The problem, of course, is that lots of people can't understand the distinction between "overweight" and "obese". Just because being a little overweight isn't unhealthy doesn't mean that being substantially overweight doesn't still have major health risks associated with it (which no study I've ever heard of has even suggested to be the case).
Though to be honest, I really don't see what the health risks of obesity have to do with whether somebody should be invited to a party or not.. I mean it's not exactly like it's contagious.
(As for the other arguments about whether or not various people should be invited/allowed, well, I won't comment, because frankly, not being an attendee or potential attendee, it's none of my business anyway. I am a little curious, though, if somebody said "no redheads", whether there would be the same uproar over it.. (and of course if not, the obvious question is why should the one case warrant more condemnation than the other?))
no subject
Date: 2006-07-08 20:05 (UTC)That was one of the other points in that email -- I think his point was "and besides, the risks aren't proven!"
Essentially, I think that item is an example of how completely overblown and tangential the whole discussion became. It always devolves into a fight over fat discrimination and perceptions.
As for the redheads thing, you could throw just about any demographic in there and say the same thing. There's no sense of perspective in that thread, for the most part. Many of the rational people bow out (because it's a flame war) and the people who are left arguing it are, well, the rest. So I guess it's to be expected.
Rude?
Date: 2006-07-09 01:58 (UTC)It seems to be that there's a high percentage of overweight people in the poly (and other alternative) communities. It's his party, but maybe the invite system should become private and friends inviting friends (understanding the criteria!) Although it sounds like the criteria include the people coming being willing/interested in the host -- now while I understand that on some level - frankly, I'm glad to go to the PPP and have no requirement to be other than properly behaved (following the rules) and generally courteous to the hosts. Admittedly, this person wants to be having a more intimate party, but again, it would seem word of mouth should get the bodies there w/o being rude to half the community.
Re: Rude?
Date: 2006-07-09 08:13 (UTC)What I don't understand is why we have to go on for four days now, in a full-bore argument, just because some git with no sense came on and made an announcement that he's having a party. If he's so obviously an insensitive asshole, why can't the people who think it's a distasteful and rude way to do things just... ignore him?
They wouldn't be excluded from a party they'd want to go to, and actively ignoring someone -- deliberate silence, with perhaps a single icy comment that the act was inappropriate -- is a good way to get through to some people that they were dumb, without raising everyone's blood pressure in a flamewar.
But, you know, with the number of people out there who think that the appropriate response to rudeness is being even more rude in return, maybe that's asking for a little much.